In today's dispatches, Mark Hatfield files his appeal paperwork. Kansas wants their own 2012 model birther bill. Manning is double-downing on the nutty. Birther Report takes a potshot at Dr. Orly, while she tries to take her road show to Indiana.
Dr. Orly hears a word she should be quite used to hearing. Thomas MacLeran tells why he's running his vanity campaign for president. Charles Kerchner sends out AN ALL CAPS press release. Tracy Dorsey / Fair does her own birther ballot jihad filing, and it's has crazy as her videos are. And Mark Hatfield doesn't want taitz sprayed all over his cases.
15 February - Mark Hatfield seems to be filing separate appeals for each of his clients. Kevin Powell being the first one.
First document is Petition for Judicial Review.
(Scribd link here)
"Pursuant to O.C.G.A. § 21-2-5(e), Petitioner now appeals and seeks judicial review of the Secretary of State's Final Decisioni n this case, and further seeks a reversal of that FinalDecision, for the reason that substantial rights of thePetitioner have been prejudiced because the findings, inferences,conclusions, and decisions of the Secretary of State are:(a) In violation of the Constitution and laws of this state;
(b)In excess of the statutory authority of the Secretary of State;
(c)Made upon unlawful procedures;
(d)Affected by other errors of law;
(e)Clearly erroneous in view of the reliable, probative,and substantial evidence on the whole record; and
(f)Arbitrary and capricious and characterized by an abuse of discretion and a clearly unwarranted exercise of discretion."
So not quite as "wahhh, I lost to an empty table", but still annoyed.
"The administrative law judge, and consequently the Secretary of State adopting the initial Decision of said judge,erred in issuing a single ruling applicable to the cases of Petitioner and certain other individuals (represented by separate counsel) who independently challenged Respondent's qualifications, despite the fact that the evidence; testimony;and legal argument advanced by Petitioner Powell differed from that offered by such other individuals;"
Translation - "The Judge got taitz smeared all over my case."
"The administrative law judge, and consequently theSecretary of State adopting the initial Decision of said judge,erred in failing at Petitioner's request to certify to thisCourt, for a determination of appropriate action including a finding of contempt, the facts of the contemptuous behavior of Respondent (and Respondent's counsel) in knowingly,intentionally, and deliberately failing to comply withPetitioner's Notice to Produce served upon Respondent"
Translation - "Damnit, I demanded that BOY show his papers, and you ignored my demand! I want that uppity darkie to show his papers NOW, do you understand, son??"
The second is a letter from Hatfield to SoS Kemp
(Scribd link here)
The third is a letter from Hatfield to Judge Malihi
(Scribd link here)
15 February - Kansas tries for their own 2012 birther bill.
"Rep. Scott Schwab, an Olathe Republican and chairman of the House Elections Committee, said origin of House Bill 2224 was tied to anxiety about Obama's birth status.
He said the amended version had more to do with acknowledgment candidates for state and federal office in Kansas should be held to the same identification requirements applied to people casting votes in the state's elections."
And in comments:
"The Birther Bill
By KobachKrusaderKid | 02/15/12 - 12:47 pm
I believe we are faced with a very real and serious problem, and that problem is illegal immigrants are coming to our country to be elected as public officials, and mooch off of our hard earned tax dollars. This bill is the only way to stop that. And this problem is as old as our country itself. George Washington? Born in a British territory. Barrack Obama? Born in Hawaii. That's not even a state! Stop the illegal immigrants from stealing our jobs..now!!!"
"The Kenyan coward
By ksdb | 02/16/12 - 03:09 pm
When Obama was challenged in Georgia recently, he refused to show his alleged certified birth certificate, as would be required by this bill. In other words, he holds himself to a lesser standard than average citizens for whom he voted a citizenship verification requirement in 2005 that requires birth certificates when you apply for a drivers license or ID card. The law he voted for also has a standard process for verifying birth certificates with the issuing agency. Obama had a chance to verify his alleged birth certificate in court. Both he and the issuing agency refused to verify it. This is a bill that needs to be passed to prevent frauds like Obama from getting elected."
And some sanity
"OK, proud Republican here… By longhawk | 02/15/12 - 04:45 pm …but can we please stop with the "Birther" nonsense? Seriously, I don't believe the president altered every micro fiche article in every library that had reference to the president's birth in Hawaii. Nevertheless, the "natural born citizen" requirement for the presidency is antiquated--couldn't give two squirts where the president was born. If he's an American and became a citizen by legal means, God bless him.I will not vote to retain Obama as our president. I don't agree with a lot of his philosophy for governing our nation, and I do believe that some of his policies have intruded upon important American freedoms.
But for the love of God, accept that he's an American, and (God help us), we elected him fair and square. Out of respect for the office, show a little respect for his integrity on this point."
15 February - Wow. Manning is getting crazier and crazier.
In a nutshell, Manning claims that "God" told him that Saudi Arabia that has long as Obama is president, there will be no more "9/11" style attacks due to "Muslim protection" of Obama, and that any legal action taken against Obama will be seen as an attack on Islam.
Oh, and that every birther group has an Islamic spy in it to sabotage their efforts.
The insanity is pretty intense here.
15 February - Get the feeling Birther Report is trying to tell Dr. Orly something?
15 February - And then there's what Hatfield filed for Carl Swensson.
Petition for Judicial Review
(Scribd link here)
It's pretty much the same as what he filed for Powell, with the names changed.
16 February - "Reality Check" tells what the birthers really need.
"Yes, a Tardis is exactly what they need. The use of a Tardis is the only way any of their claims could magically become true. Look at these examples of their claims that could be dramatically improved and other events that might have a better outcome through the judicious use of a Tardis:
*They could go back and change the hundreds of Civics books, legal articles, and guides that say anyone born in the US can become President.
*They could actually have mentioned the two parent citizen nonsense before late 2008 so it didn’t look like they pulled it out of their ass thin air.
*Mario Apuzzo and Leo Donofrio could have represented Ankeny from Indiana on appeal at SCOTUS (OK, it wouldn’t have helped but it would have been fun.)
*They could go back and stop Gary Kreep from bringing Orly Taitz on board in his eligibility case with Alan Keyes. (Now that would be a complete shame.)
*Someone could tell Orly that the Orange County LGBT HQ was not the proper place to file her petition to run for California Secretary of State.
*They could tell Terry Lakin to find a better set of friends and an attorney with a specialty other than dog bite cases to advise him on how to express his concerns about the President’s place of birth.
*The could hint to Jerome Corsi that he consider finding another subject for a book.
*They could advise Donald Trump to never, never mess with President Obama. Remember how he snatched that fly in mid flight?
I am sure you could think of many more. Fortunately, Doctor Who is not ready to sell his Tardis and would never consider putting it in the hands of these fools. It would indeed lead to an irreparable rift in the space time continuum."
16 February - Dr. Orly sends her latest Birther Ballot Jihad attempt to Indiana. (Malware and redirect warning)
"IMPORTANT ELECTIONS FRAUD COMPLAINT AND CANDIDATE CHALLENGE TO OBAMA IS BEING FEDEXED TODAY TO IN ELECTIONS COMMISSION. DRAFT OF THE COMPLAINT IS ATTACHED
Posted on | February 16, 2012 "
16 February - Dr. Orly is told by Judge Wright in Georgia, "No, you can't have Pro Hac Vice, not yours"
(Scribd link here)
"The majority of the required information set forth above was not included in the Motion for Pro Hac Vice of Ms. Taitz as required by Uniform Superior Court Rule 4.4(E)(1).Moreover,the Motion included no Verification affirming that the applicant read the application,was knowledgeable as to its contents,and that said contents were true. The Motion also failed to demonstrate, through proof of service, that it would be served upon the Office of the GeneralCounsel of the State Bar of Georgia"
In other words, Dr. Orly failed to follow instructions, Again. Though it's nice to FINALLY see a judge deny her PHV attempts.
16 February - Wow, the stupid, it burns.
"OPOVV says:
Thursday, February 16, 2012 at 3:03 PM
Basic reason #1 why I signed-up to be a Republican candidate for president in 2012 was to get in on the debates where I could “set the record straight”. For instance, if the moderator would ask, “OPOVV, what do you think of the president’s selling Israel down the river?” I’d answer, “You mean the de facto president? You mean what do I think of the South Side Chicago con-artist, the illegal immigrant, the Muslim plant, the “Clown of American politics”, the imposter, the low life, the future detainee at Gitmo, the sorry excuse we have masquerading as president, you mean, his selling Israel down the river, is that who you mean? He’s not the president, don’t you know that, Mr. Media Moderator? Obama, or whoever he thinks he is today, doesn’t meet the qualifications set forth in the Constitution to be president, or did you miss that particular memo, or maybe you weren’t paying attention in American Civics class, or maybe your Commie teacher skipped that part of the lesson plan. Ask me the question again, but this time, get it right”."
He actually thinks he's getting into any debates??
16 February - Charles Kerchner announces, in all caps, a press conference after his planned Pennsylvania Birther Ballot Jihad filing.
"CONCERNED CITIZENS OF PA, RESIDENTS OF AND DULY REGISTERED MEMBERS OF THE ELECTORATE, WILL HOLD A PRESS CONFERENCE 3:00PM, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17TH, AT THE CAPITOL ROTUNDA IN HARRISBURG, PA, TO ANNOUNCE THAT A STATE LAWSUIT, IN COMMONWEALTH COURT, WILL BE FILED ON FRIDAY, SEEKING A JUDGEMENT TO HAVE CANDIDATE BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA’S NOMINATION PETITION OR PAPERS SET ASIDE DUE TO HIS FAILURE TO MEET THE NATURAL BORN CITIZEN CONSTITUTIONAL ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS OF THE OFFICE HE SEEKS.
CHARLES KERCHNER, THE GROUP’S LEADER AND A RETIRED NAVY COMMANDER, AFTER MANY YEARS OF RESEARCH, HAS DETERMINED THAT CANDIDATE OBAMA IS NOT ELIGIBLE TO HOLD THE OFFICE OF PRESIDENT BECAUSE “HE IS NOT A NATURAL-BORN CITIZEN ACCORDING TO THE US CONSTITUTION.” “WE ARE A NATION OF IMMIGRANTS BUT CANDIDATE OBAMA’S FATHER WAS NOT ONE.” HE SAID. “UNTIL CANDIDATE OBAMA CAME ALONG, NO PRESIDENT SINCE THE FOUNDING GENERATION HAS HAD A FOREIGN BORN FATHER WHO NEVER IMMIGRATED TO THE USA.” OBAMA’S FATHER WAS NEVER A CITIZEN. CANDIDATE OBAMA WAS BORN A BRITISH SUBJECT AND DUAL CITIZEN."
The people at Birther Report have some commentary.
"Famous Spearthrower said…[Reply] Good luck with this court challenge. I believe this is the forth one file across the country including 3 I have heard of in Arizona, Georgia and Illinois. Aside from seeking at minimum an FBI examination and authentication of his birth certificate I think many Americans ought to consider his other "constitutional disability" as spelled out in Section 2 of the 14th Amendment and DEMAND the vote necessary in both Houses of Congress to remove that disability based on his relationship with Bill Ayres and his previously convicted wife Bernadette Dorn. February 16, 2012 1:42 AM"
Article II of the 14th Amendment states:
"Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State."
I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the commenter is talking about.
16 February - Some people at Birther Report are seeing the writing on the wall.
"Anonymous said…[Reply] Glad the efforts are being made but SC will never hear this and all appeals will be denied until it gets to that level. Our country has been taken over in a bloodless coup. We have until November to find his(whoever he is) real birth certificate, adoption records, and school applications which likely show he applied as a foreign student. Dude was not born in Hawaii or else he is lying about his entire identity and could be the Son of Sam for all we know. Birth records may be impossible to find because there is no such person as Barack Obama Jr. Ever think about that? That should matter a lot. He is no more the son of that Kenyan then my white honkey ass. Without these documents or proof of who he is, Obama wins reelection by fraud in 2012 and then the Constitution will suffer its final shredding. These appeals are a total waste of time. February 16, 2012 6:57 AM"
"(CAPT-DAX) said…[Reply] I'm starting to think this is one big Circle jerk..all these Treasonist and complicit… MTHR FKRS!! will end up against the wall, after were all taken off to Extermination Camps.. February 16, 2012 8:07 AM"
"Anonymous said…[Reply] The result of this appeal will be the same as the last case to go to the Fulton County Superior Court, i.e. nothing.This "movement" which once was so promising, is day by day coming more and more to resemble the WW2 Japanese soldiers who kept holding out in remote locations for years, even decades, sfter the war ended.
February 16, 2012 8:36 AM"
16 February - Tracy Dorsey nee Fair, AKA "KenyanBornObamAcorn", comes up with the Maryland Birther Ballot Jihad.
And if you thought her videos were crazy, well….
(Scribd link here)
"CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISIONS U.S. Constitution
Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5:
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty fiveYears, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.14th Amendment Section 1 All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall maker enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of theUnited States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.Article 1, Section 8, Clause 10: To defame and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"
Yes, she actually cited the phrase in the Constitution that the de Vattelists claim shows that the entire thing is based on a translation of "The Law of Nations" that didn't exist until a decade later.
"The term Natural Born Citizen is not based upon English Common Law, but rather on Vattel's definition written in his legal treatise of 1758 titled, The Law of Nations or Principles of Natural Law."
Except the term doesn't appear in the original French OR in the English translation that was available at the time.
"An interesting illustration is offered by some early statistics concerning courts: within 31 years, from 1789-1820 Grotius was cited in pleadings 16 times, Pufendorf 9 times; Bynkershoek 25 times; Vattel 92 times. "
And in the founders own writings, Blackstone is cited more often than de Vattel, and de Vattel was never cited as a legal reference in said writings.
The whole thing goes to 52 pages (27 of which are exhibits), most of which is de Vattelist cut and paste, with some historical revisionism thrown in for good measure. (Bonus, page 45 is Lucas Smith's Fake Kenyan Birth Certificate! Extra Bonus, page 46 is the Fake Kenyan Birth Certificate with the Dutch background!!!)As a pro se complainant, she makes a decent videographer.
The conclusion is where the true Tracy Fine shines though. (Bold face mine)
"
For the reasons stated above, I feel I've proved there is no other choice but to remove Mr. Obama from the ballot for not filling the Natural Born citizen requirements needed to run for the Office of the President. Leaving Mr. Obama's name on the ballot in not only unconstitutional, but violates all Maryland citizens 14th amendment rights by enforcing a law that abridges the privileges or immunities of citizens oft he United States, not to mention our right to free and fair elections by qualified candidates. If this constitutional error is not made right, it will set precedent that all one needs, is to be is born here to be President and it won't be long before we have an anchor baby allowed to run for the Presidency and because their parents allegiance is to another country, the child will have no allegiance to this country whatsoever. That will be the end of America, if the unconstitutional President doesn't ruin it first.
Just in case you needed proof that deep down in her fetid little soul, she's a freaking racist.
17 February - Looks like Dr. Orly is throwing her
"I verified, that the documents were received with the first shipment by 8:30 am and called the court several times. I included $213.50 for the filing fee, $200 for Pro Hac Vice-out of state attorney application and paid some $100 for the FedEx. I got a call back and was told that the fee is not $213.50, but $245.50 and an additional $1 for the motion, so unless someone brings a check for $33 or cash, they will not file the case. I called the plaintiff, Mr. Farrar, he brought additional $33. I told him, that when I spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours, no sense of playing games and arguing with them for $33. "
Don't you just love how she's always talking about the money she's wasting on this garbage??
"I, also, wrote to the court, that in the administrative court I was granted the right to represent the clients pro had vice- meaning an out of state attorney representing in state client. Though usually it is required for an in state attorney to co-sign the case, when the case is handled pro-bono (at no charge to indigent client) and/or it is a civil rights case, the requirement for the in state co-counsel is waived. Judge Wright was not willing to waive this requirement. "
Every time Dr. Orly calls herself a "Civil Rights Attorney", or one of her cases a "Civil Rights Case", an angel coughs up blood.
"I got a response from her, she wanted full compliance with the in state counsel co-signing and additional information. "
Wow, you mean someone actually wanted you to follow the rules! Shock and amazement!!!
"While I have no problem supplying additional information,"
Including that minor little detail about your past sanctions??
" It is impossible to find a co-counsel who is not frightened to take upon these most explosive issues, dealing with Obama using a stolen Social Security number and a forged birth certificate."
In other words, you can't find anyone in Georgia crazy and stupid enough to put their own professional reputation on the line to help you. Got it.
"However, in my opinion bringing a limited case dealing only with the interpretation of natural born, is going absolutely nowhere. I believe it to be a waste of time and money"
"Don't waste your time with those other attorneys, send all your money to MEE!!! It's all about MEEEE!!!!!!"
"…but everyone is entitled to his opinion and I respect the opinion of other attorneys."
Since when???
"So, I advised my clients, that they can proceed pro se. David Farrar, who is a resident of GA, has a better chance both legally and logistically, and he will continue pro se with this appeal."
Congratulations David Farrar, you just got thrown under the bus by your attorney! How does it feel??
"Other plaintiffs, who reside in other states, probably will not proceed pro se, but I might bring a case on their behalf in the federal court."
Good luck with that, skippy.
"I looked up the judge on this case. Anybody can look up info on judge Cynthia Wright. She is a very, very liberal Democrat. It is hard to believe she will ever rule against Obama."
Makes a good excuse as to why you don't wish to follow her rules, right?
"You can see a big difference between me and other attorneys, in that when other attorneys demand large retainers of $10,000 or $25,000 and bring very limited cases, I do it not for the money, but because I believe in what I am doing and I bring very detailed cases with the most incriminating evidence, in spite of persecutions by the regime."
You're constantly hitting up your followers for money, bitching that other birther groups aren't giving you any money, and filing any crap you can find in hopes of finding something that will stick.
And as for her Indiana Birther Ballot Jihad stop:
" I want to see, how they will justify keeping this criminal and fraud, Barack Obama, on the ballot, after they removed the Secretary of State for something minor."
Maybe because their Secretary of State actually did break the law, while you have no credible evidence, witnesses, or proof that President Obama did likewise??
"If they do that, people will revolt."
She's really starting to rattle birther cages….
And in comments:
"Rachel Spelling
February 17th, 2012 @ 4:57 am
You may be spending thousands of dollars and thousands of hours but it’s not nearly enough. You need to sell your home and all your belongings and really, really go for it. Do something dramatic. Show them you mean it. It’s now or never.
Keep your spirit up!"
Dream on……
17 February - Hatfield sends a letter to the judges of his two separate clients as to why he doesn't want them consolidated.
(Scribd link here)
"While I concede that the Farrar case and the Welden case involve much of the same subject matter, these two (2) cases consist of separate evidence and testimony from that presented in the Swensson and Powell cases I am handling. Further, the Farrar case, in particular, involves not only the eligibility issue, but also claims of Social Security and elections fraud, identity theft, and other matters.
My clients' position is that their two (2) cases, involving the same testimony and evidence, should be consolidated for hearing before a single judge. However, we do not believe that our cases should be consolidated with either the Welden case or the Farrar case due to the differing testimony and evidence submitted in those matters. In any event, we would specifically object to having our cases consolidated with the Farrar case due to the very different nature of that case, the possibility of confusion of the issues between the cases, and the likelihood of prejudice to my clients' cases as a result of the anticipated style of presentation of the Farrar case."
Translation - "please please please don't splash taitz all over our cases!!!!"
"Rachel Spelling
February 17th, 2012 @ 4:57 am
You may be spending thousands of dollars and thousands of hours but it’s not nearly enough. You need to sell your home and all your belongings and really, really go for it. Do something dramatic. Show them you mean it. It’s now or never.
Keep your spirit up!"
I'm betting "Rachel Spelling" is an Obot. But, if the existence of the United States is truly endangered by Obama's presidency, how can Orly balk at any sacrifice.
The Birthers once amused me. They were always good for a laugh. Now they disgust me, and I suppose that is the proper response; disgust is always the appropriate reaction with confronted with willful ignorance and naked racism.
Posted by: AuBricker | February 17, 2012 at 08:10 PM
"I'm betting "Rachel Spelling" is an Obot."
impossible to tell at this late date since we haven't seen a post that was too stupid to not have come from a real birther ...
Posted by: aarrgghh | February 17, 2012 at 11:57 PM
so if there won't be another 9/11 while obama's president, that's a win, right?
Posted by: aarrgghh | February 18, 2012 at 12:00 AM
I don't know -- this one seems kind of tongue-in-cheek to me:
George Washington? Born in a British territory. Barrack Obama? Born in Hawaii. That's not even a state!
Posted by: MaryRC | February 18, 2012 at 12:52 AM
@ Patty
So what if the term 'natural born citizen' wasn't used in Vattel's work prior to the Framers crafting the Article 2 Natural Born Citizen clause?
The question that should be asked: In the earlier work, did Vattel describe something in regards to citizenship & natural law that the framers used in the Article 2 clause, and they called it 'natural born Citizen'?
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 18, 2012 at 11:23 AM
Who cares what a French-speaking, Swiss philosopher thought years before the Constitution was written?
Posted by: Bob | February 18, 2012 at 11:33 AM
@ Bob
Our Founders and the early colonists cared. They wanted the new country to be on par with the other nations of the world. So the Founders studied Vattel's Law of Nations and used it as a guide to get to their goal.
We have records showing Vattel's work was being studied in colonial universities prior to the Declaration of Independence [1776]. Vattel's work was cited many times in court cases during those early years after the founding.
Here's Ben Franklin's letter to Vattel's editor in 1775: “ I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel. It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the Law of Nations. has been continually in the hands of the members of our congress, now sitting. Accordingly, that copy which I kept has been continually in the hands of the members of our congress, now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author.”
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM
Orly sez:
"JUDGE R. KENNETH COLEMAN’S CASES. DOES ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE? I AM TRYING TO PUT A FACE ON THE NAME"
She is trying to find out if Coleman is black but doesn't quite come out and ask. Damn is she repulsive.
Posted by: Bob | February 18, 2012 at 05:17 PM
It's blatantly obvious why she wants a to see a photo isn't it? She knows Kenneth is a man and he is a retired judge so what other information could be gleaned other than race?
Great job as usual Pat.
Posted by: Reality Check | February 19, 2012 at 08:55 AM
Oh no, say it isn't so! Looks like Bob & Reality Check are on to something.
Have we found one of Master Patty's "scary black men"?
Maybe Orly can get him disqualified based on the grounds that the judge wouldn't be impartial due to him being a nappyhead.
Question for Master Patty's race obsessed mindless lapdogs: Do you think Orly would be better off with a cracker as the judge?
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 19, 2012 at 02:02 PM
Oh, Rambo Ike. Using terms like nappyhead, eh? Seems like the only racially obsessed tools are Birthers like you and Orly.
I see you are part of the DeVattel Cult as well. *yawn*. Yeah, good luck with that one. The courts don't seem to agree with you.
But hey, keep that childish tantrum going... only 5 more years for you to sustain it...
Posted by: G | February 20, 2012 at 09:45 AM
Ike, please show even one historical document that shows the Framers used Vattel as the source for their definition of "Natural Born Citizen," rather than the English Common Law and Blackstone's commentaries regarding it. Yes, Vattel was studied during that time period, and yes, the Framers consulted his work, but there is absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that he was influential regarding citizenship. His treatise was a work on relations between nations, and that's what it was used for. Citizenship, being primarily a domestic issue, would not have been based on Vattel's work.
Posted by: ASK Esq | February 20, 2012 at 12:18 PM
@ G-string
Is there something wrong with the term 'nappyhead'? Does it bother you to get back what you've been quilty of for over a year?
@ ASK Esq
Ignorance has no bounds in the SadFiction forum. Lets do this slow so you too can get it: Look...up...above...on...this...thread...to...my...posting...of...Ben...Franklin's...letter....to....Vattel's....editor. Franklin's...letter...is...a...historical...document.
Vattel's work was used continuously by our founder's starting before the Declaration and continuing on in to the 1800s, and in court cases where there is documented evidence of Vattel's work being used. The Framers of our Freedom Charters rejected the belief that the new country was under English Common law
Not positive but I believe Blackstone work had more influence on municipal laws within the country whereas Vattel's work was used more for laws among the nations. Obviously, determining citizenship is something that would primarily exist among nations - not a domestic issue.
Try researching Vattel's Law of Nations, book 1 chapter 19. I believe that is where Jay & some of the other founders came up with the idea for 'natural born Citizen'.
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 21, 2012 at 08:16 AM
Quilty eh? What, are you forming a knitting circle now, Rambo Ike? LOL!
Nappyhead is a derogatory term. Then again, no surprise to hear such language from you, as your spittle-rage inflected posts are rarely ever more than a bunch of brain-addled invectives and long debunked myths strung together.
Still flogging the Cult of DeVattel nonsense I see. Yeah, good luck with that. But hey, in the imaginary planet you live on, he can be whatever you want him to be. However, back in reality and in our courts, he never had any impact on the portions of our laws in regards to citizenship.
Which is why you losers continue to predictably FAIL every time in the Courts. But hey, keep pretending. Meanwhile, Obama continues to serve as POTUS unabated.
Posted by: G | February 21, 2012 at 10:53 AM
"Rambo Ike" - So if de Vattel was "used continuously by our founder's starting before the Declaration and continuing on in to the 1800", please tell us where in the Constitution we can find articles based upon the following passages of "The Law of Nations"??
--------------------------------------
Book One:
§ 114. Freedom of philosophical discussion.
I speak of the freedom of philosophical discussion, which is the soul of the republic of letters. … I know that liberty has its proper bounds — that a wise government ought to have an eye to the press, and not to allow the publication of scandalous productions, which attack morality, government, or the established religion.
§ 127. Of religion internal and external.
Religion consists in the doctrines concerning the Deity and the things of another life, and in the worship appointed to the honour of the Supreme Being. So far as it is seated in the heart, if is an affair of conscience, in which every one ought to be directed by his own understanding: but so far as it is external, and publicly established, it is an affair of state.
§ 129. Public establishment of religion.
But we should take care not to extend this liberty beyond its just bounds. In religious affairs a citizen has only a right to be free from compulsion, but can by no means claim that of openly doing what he pleases, without regard to the consequences it may produce on society. The establishment of religion by law, and its public exercise, are matters of state, and are necessarily under the jurisdiction of the political authority. If all men are bound to serve God, the entire nation, in her national capacity is doubtless obliged to serve and honour him (Prelim. § 5), And as this important duty is to be discharged by the nation in whatever manner she judges best, — to the nation it belongs to determine what religion she will follow, and what public worship she thinks proper to establish.
§ 141. The sovereign’s authority over the ministers of religion.
To the prince’s inspection of the affairs and concerns of religion we have joined an authority over its ministers: without the latter power, the former would be nugatory and ineffectual; — they are both derived from the same principle. It is absurd, and contrary to the first foundations of society, that any citizens should claim an independence of the sovereign authority, in offices of such importance to the repose, the happiness, and safety of the state. This is establishing two independent powers in the same society — an unfailing source of division, disturbance, and ruin. There is but one supreme power in the state; the functions of the subordinate powers vary according to their different objects: — ecclesiastics, magistrates, and commanders of the troops, are all officers of the republic, each in his own department; and all are equally accountable to the sovereign.
§ 176. Means of putting a stop to this disorder.
…Whoever should so far forget himself, as, either by word or deed, to insult a man who wears a sword, might be degraded from the rank of nobility, deprived of the privilege of carrying arms, and subjected to corporal punishment — even the punishment of death, according to the grossness of the insult…
…Since it is an established custom that the nobility and military men should appear armed, even in time of peace, care should be taken to enforce a rigid observance of the laws which allow the privilege of wearing swords to these two orders of men only.
Book Two
§ 81. The property of the citizens is the property of the nation, with respect to foreign nations.
Even the property of the individuals is, in the aggregate, to be considered as the property of the nation, with respect to other states. It, in some sort, really belongs to her, from the right she has over the property of her citizens, because it constitutes a part of the sum total of her riches, and augments her power. She is interested in that property by her obligation to protect all her members. In short, it cannot be otherwise, since nations act and treat together as bodies in their quality of political societies, and are considered as so many moral persons. All those who form a society, a nation being considered by foreign nations as constituting only one whole, one single person, — all their wealth together can only be considered as the wealth of that same person.
§ 115. Marriages of aliens. (118)
There exists no natural impediment to prevent foreigners from contracting marriages in the state. But, if these marriages are found prejudicial or dangerous to a nation, she has a right, and is even in duty bound to prohibit them, or to subject to certain conditions the permission to contract them: and, as it belongs to the nation or to her sovereign to determine what appears most conducive to the welfare of the state, other nations ought to acquiesce in the regulations which any sovereign state has made on this head. Citizens are almost everywhere forbid to marry foreign wives of a different religion
§ 122. Right of carrying off women.
… A nation cannot preserve and perpetuate itself, except by propagation. A nation of men has, therefore, a right to procure women, who are absolutely necessary to its preservation; and if its neighbours, who have a redundancy of females, refuse to give some of them in marriage to those men, the latter may justly have recourse to force
Posted by: Patrick McKinnion | February 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM
"Rambo Ike" - You also might want to check this link out:
http://www.constitution.org/primarysources/influences.html
Sir William Blackstone was the highest legal expert cited (at 3rd place), with 7.9% of citations referencing him.
Sir Edward Coke was at 11th place with 1.3% of citations referencing him.
Emmerich de Vattel was cited on the principles of the Enlightenment rather than the law, and was at 30th place with .5% of citations referencing him.
How very……interesting.
Posted by: Patrick McKinnion | February 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM
Rambo Ike: "Obviously, determining citizenship is something that would primarily exist among nations - not a domestic issue."
So you think that other nations get to decide who is or isn't an American citizen?
Re-read what you wrote and feel the burning shame of stupidity...
Posted by: Obsolete | February 21, 2012 at 04:51 PM
@ G-string
You're a laugher. Feigning outrage at my words when it's been a staple for Patty and his flock for over a year.
What's the purpose for 'scarey black man'? Is it if you're not in lockstep with the fellow traverlers for 0bumm0, the afro-marxist muslim messiah, then you must be a racist?
Nobody answered my question above in this thread so I'll repeat it here. Do you think it would be better for attornies suing 0bumm0 to have a cracker republican judge hear the case?
There's a rumor that judge Mahili of the Georgia Case was a towelhead. Anybody here know if he was?
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 22, 2012 at 11:14 AM
Rambo Ike - Obvious troll is obvious. 1/10, you really can do better than that.
And if you ever bothered to read anything I've written, I've pointed out repeatedly that not all birthers are racist. Some are disgruntled because Hillary Clinton didn't win the nomination. Some are disgruntled because a Democrat won the election.
But there is a strong element within the birther community that have their hatred of Obama based either upon his race or what they believe to be his religion.
BTW, Judge Malihi is Jewish, of Iranian decent.
Posted by: Patrick McKinnion | February 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM
@ Patty
The earliest I've seen is Sam Adams using Vattel's work in 1772 - 14 years after the work was finished.
Are you for real? Vattel's work wasn't used literally word for word. I believe it was as Franklin says, "when the circumstances of a rising state make it necessary frequently to consult the Law of Nations." In other words, when an issue came up that affected America's relationship with other nations, Vattel's work was checked out to see what he had to say on it.
I've never seen that chart before. Except for the Bible which has always been #1 I don't agree with the rest of it. One problem is the count started in 1760, and except for Jefferson, the other Founders/Framers didn't get the work till Franklin gave them a copy in 1775. Start the count in 1775 and we'll see a big difference in the %s.
Machiavelli same as Vattel? That's insane.
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 22, 2012 at 12:34 PM
@ Obsolete
Obsolete: "So you think that other nations get to decide who is or isn't an American citizen?"
You prove my point when you say American citizen. Are the millions of illegal aliens squatting in America called American citizens? What countries have jurisdiction over them?
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 22, 2012 at 12:55 PM
Rambo Ike - You are so over the top in your crazy talk and racism, that I supsect you are just a Parody Troll and pathetically think you are some "hipster" doing "Performance Art".
Well, that's a pretty lame act. Someone who gets their kicks out of pretending to be an asshole is simply an asshole themselves.
I mean, how over the top can you be in ridiculous by always ranting about racism and YOU being the one who uses words such as towelhead, cracker, etc. Racists are outed with their words and deeds. People who use racist words as invective, such as you are clearly racist.
Even if you are doing it as part of your "Performance Art" satire here, that makes you a fairly low class person for even getting your kicks pretending to wallow in the sewer in the first place.
You asked this stupid and quite obvious question to Obsolete, which I will answer: "Are the millions of illegal aliens squatting in America called American citizens? What countries have jurisdiction over them?"
ANSWER: No, by definition, if they are an "illegal alien" they are NOT an American Citizen. *DUH*
Their citizenship remains with whatever country they came from. So, those origin countries retain a certain right of jurisdiction over their citizens, even when abroad.
However, when you travel to another country - legally or illegally, YOU also become "subject to the jurisdiction" of that country when you are within their borders. HINT: Travel to any other country and try to start a fight or steal something. YOU will get arrested for that under THEIR laws, as you are subject to their jurisdiction. Same applies here.
***DUH*** This is really simple common sense stuff.
Posted by: G | February 22, 2012 at 01:22 PM
"Rambo Ike" - While it's cute to see the tap dance around the other parts of de Vattel's work, you also didn't answer the other big questions.
Namely why do people believe that the founders used de Vattel as the basis for their definition of "natural born citizen" in the Constitution, and nothing else from said writings.
Also, why do the birthers cite a version of "The Law of Nations" that came out ten years after the Constitution was ratified, and uses a phrase that doesn't appear in either the original French or the previous English translation?
BTW, Benjamin Franklin was fluent in French, as were most of the founders. He would be far more likely to use the original version of "The Law of Nations" as a reference than an English translation.
Posted by: Patrick McKinnion | February 22, 2012 at 01:31 PM
@ G-string
You stated: "Their citizenship remains with whatever country they came from. So, those origin countries retain a certain right of jurisdiction over their citizens, even when abroad."
So then how do these countries retain a certain right of jurisdiction over their citizens that have fled to another country? Is there some kind of relationship ala Law of Nations that countries have agreed honor?
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 23, 2012 at 03:02 AM
@ Patty
You are displaying an hypocrisy of the highest order accusing me of tap dancing around anything when in reality it's you and your flock using some fancy footwork to avoid addressing numerous facts & questions I've presented.
Patty: "Namely why do people believe that the founders used de Vattel as the basis for their definition of "natural born citizen" in the Constitution, and nothing else from said writings."
How do you know that the framers of our Constitution didn't use some of Vattel's other writings in his Law of Nations work? Were you there? ~grin~ Because they didn't cite him as much as you tried to make a case for doesn't mean he wasn't researched on different issues that arose during the covention.
I would have to believe Franklin's statement about 'frequently consulting & continually being in the hands of congressional members' since he was there.
Or maybe the wise old sage knew back then that in the year 2008 that Vattel's work would become hotly contested by America's enemy within [the 5th Column] so he deliberately put out that statement to help the Birthers.
Patty: "Also, why do the birthers cite a version of "The Law of Nations" that came out ten years after the Constitution was ratified, and uses a phrase that doesn't appear in either the original French or the previous English translation?"
This is good! Now you have my attention - playtime is over with.
If I'm understanding this correctly you are claiming that the versions, circa 1760s/1770s, didn't contain the writings of Vattel that were in later versions, after the ratification of the Constitution, listed as Book 1, Chapter XIX. Is that correct?
As for the phrase, 'it's my opinion' that it was thought up by some of the founders after reading Vattel's writings on citizenship.
French was the international language used during that time period by all nations.
Posted by: Rambo Ike | February 23, 2012 at 04:22 AM